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<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"><title>Conversation with #telepathy at Tue 30 Nov 2010 12:49:47 GMT on KA__@irc.freenode.net (irc)</title></head><body><h3>Conversation with #telepathy at Tue 30 Nov 2010 12:49:47 GMT on KA__@irc.freenode.net (irc)</h3>
<font size="2">(12:49:48)</font><b> The topic for #telepathy is: ICQ trouble? <a href="http://is.gd/hmEtM">http://is.gd/hmEtM</a> | Visit #empathy on GIMPnet for Empathy-specific discussion | Telepathy Real-time Communications Framework: <a href="http://telepathy.freedesktop.org">http://telepathy.freedesktop.org</a> | <a href="http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ">http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/FAQ</a> | <a href="http://git.collabora.co.uk/">http://git.collabora.co.uk/</a></b><br/>
<font size="2">(12:56:01)</font><b> MattJ [<em>~MattJ@91.85.174.192</em>] entered the room.</b><br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(13:17:58)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> those who like contact lists: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31997<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(13:22:05)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> and relatedly https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=31998<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:04:34)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> hmm. what do we actually have in Gabble that actually needs server support? besides PEP and contact search and contact info.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:09:31)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> mucs ?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:09:38)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> invisible<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:09:47)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> proxies<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:10:06)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> invisible is a good one<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:11:22)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> XMPP ping maybe<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:11:30)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> not sure if we implement this one<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:11:48)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> the roster power saving thing<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:12:20)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> oh yeah, dwd implemented google:queue in M-Link<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:12:26)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> invisible's a good idea. we do implement xmpp ping<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:18:06)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> we don't do the roster versioning thing though<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:18:10)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> maybe we should. how hard could it be.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:18:44)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> there's not much to test in Ping :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:19:01)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> I'd like to move to a WockyRoster first tbh, but....<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:19:13)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> cassidy: proxies as in Socks5 bytestream proxies?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:19:16)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> yep<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:55:26)</font> <b>ptlo:</b></font> kkszysiu, heya; i seem to remember you were hacking on a im-via-web-using-telepathy stuff? how's that going? i'd be interested in doing something along the same lines<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(14:55:46)</font> <b>ptlo:</b></font> (or similar)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:10:05)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> huh<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:10:21)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> setting my status on Google Talk seems to take a noticable amount of time since the Shared Status stuff went in<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:10:43)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> in gabble or in another location<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:11:12)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> Oh, i noticed that our iq request queue somethings fill up and then doesn't seem to get unstuck<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:11:43)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> quite noticable of you request user info<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:12:06)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> in Gabble. i didn't even have GMail open<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:12:23)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> invisibleness works on almost all of my accounts now! :D<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:12:38)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> i mean does it take gabble a while to send out the presence or gmail to update it to peers<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:13:35)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> MattJ: so about that xep-0186 support? ;-)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:14:03)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> heh, oh dear<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:14:22)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> i fell out of jdev@ when I went invisible<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:14:39)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> buhboh<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:15:10)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> i guess the collabora xmpp server does privacy list-based invisibility, so it's only doing what i asked<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:16:50)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> wjt, how can you test if you are actually invisible? The account presence is always sync with your real status?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:17:26)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> (I like this ghost icon :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:17:28)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/spec/Account.html#org.freedesktop.Telepathy.Account.CurrentPresence is based on what the CM says it is<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:17:37)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> and that's what shows up in the account dialog<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:17:46)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> what does the ghost look like? I use a different theme.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:20:40)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> wjt, http://people.collabora.co.uk/~cassidy/status.jpg<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:22:31)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> haha<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:22:39)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> that's the only good icon in that set<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:22:51)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> totally<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:28:05)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> pessi: Hi, I fixed some bugs in ring: http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=user/jonny/telepathy-ring.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/trivia<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:29:09)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> no gitorious merge request? <br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:29:27)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> no gitorious merge request.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:29:42)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> no biscuit.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:30:44)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> bha, my register flag is sticky on an account again<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:30:49)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> i thought we fixed that...<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:33:38)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> That's the #2 most common problem I help Empathy users with :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:34:15)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> :-/<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:34:21)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> What's number one?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:34:26)</font> <b>cassidy:</b></font> yeah that should have be fixed in MC<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:34:48)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> Good that a proper register interface is getting higher on the todo list<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:35:24)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> jonnylamb: debugging "Network Error" messages<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:35:35)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> \o\ /o/<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:35:45)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> :-(<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:35:46)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> jonnylamb: which actually covers practically every account or server misconfiguration possible, so...<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:35:50)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> that's mostly fixed though<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:00)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> ConnectionError gives us extensible signalling<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:09)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> not all the CMs actually provide more info yet<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:17)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> we're getting there for Gabble<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:18)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> Does Gabble?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:23)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> Good :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:34)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> Gabble provides the un-localized debug message in all cases<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:41)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> the UI doesn't show it though<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:44)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> Please use <text> from XMPP errors<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:46)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> and a maximally good Telepathy error in some<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:36:56)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> I know other servers aren't helpful that way, but Prosody is<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:37:17)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> MattJ: aha, I spy a use-case for the hypothetical server-message field<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:37:25)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> dear ejabberd, why are you not showing your xep 55 in your disco response<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:37:31)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> smcv: :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:37:38)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> (ConnectionError has a hash table of misc, debug-message is the only universally-provided key)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:00)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> hey<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:09)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> you successfully convinced me to conflate the two<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:13)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> MattJ: what language is the <text> in btw?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:22)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> if the server provides <text/>, use that; otherwise, use a locally-supplied debug string<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:41)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> did I? not sure if I intended to or not, tbh<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:54)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> smcv: In Prosody, always (British!) English currently<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:56)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> I don't really trust servers to give something more useful then gabble can tbh<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:38:57)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> well, s/you/this channel/<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:06)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> sjoerd: lies<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:22)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> MattJ: Prosody is usually the exception about being nice<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:26)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> Heh<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:34)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> libpurple's localized debug messages aren't quite the same thing as <text/> from the server<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:47)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> ejabberd isn't even telling me why it's disconnecting some test accounts<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:39:55)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> There are vague errors like "bad-request" or "not-authorized" where Prosody usually gives more specific information about why the error occured<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:04)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> tbh we should probably provide our (libpurple's/wocky's) interpretation, *and* the <text/> from the server in case it's informative<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:14)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> nod<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:16)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> smcv: Yes, the specs say you should do that<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:25)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> e.g. not present solely the <text><br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:36)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> oh I wasn't suggesting that<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:40:55)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> the primary thing to present is a D-Bus error code which UIs are expected to localize<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:41:07)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> one of whose possible values is the dreaded NetworkError<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:41:12)</font> <b>MattJ:</b></font> But please don't do what Psi does and copy the XMPP spec's error text verbatim into the UI...<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:43:39)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> hehe<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:44:00)</font> <b>pessi:</b></font> jonnylamb: please rebase against latest master ... and see if e7470c3ab and f26a5c3298 are still applicable<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:44:45)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> wjt: hrm, can you disco remote servers for their jud and does gabble do that if needed or does it rely on the given server being the jud?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:45:34)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> pessi: Hm, I wonder why my checkout was so out-of-date. Did you just push those patches?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:45:43)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> pessi: \o/ TpBaseChannel \o/<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:46:37)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> sjoerd: oops. the latter.<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:46:40)</font> <b>pessi:</b></font> jonnylamb: I was just waiting for our tester to get rid of oFono bugs ;)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:48:57)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> wjt: we should probably cope with both cases.. i wonder if jud server correctly indicate in a disco response that they're the jud server<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:52:40)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> pessi: Well you've destroyed my branch with your recent commits!<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:52:44)</font> <b>jonnylamb:</b></font> pessi: http://git.collabora.co.uk/?p=user/jonny/telepathy-ring.git;a=shortlog;h=refs/heads/trivia<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:58:30)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> so. if I were to propose adding a property alongside ValidAccounts and InvalidAccounts, which contains accounts which are not normal IM accounts—maybe they're just signed in for some kind of pubsub system—and thus should not normally be shown to the user, how many people would club me to death?<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(15:59:18)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> assumptions: such accounts never turn into normal accounts; there would be a separate interface for them on AM; but otherwise they would behave like normal accounts; the Account objects would also have a property on a separate interface to say they're non-user-visible service accounts?<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:00:38)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> alternative possibly less-beating-worthy proposals include just adding the flag to the account and then modifying tp-{glib,qt4,...} to hide 'em by default<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:00:53)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> wjt: if the account manager manages it, I think it's a valid account like any other<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:01:32)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> if the libraries hide those accounts by default, that's no more compatible than changing the D-Bus API<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:01:44)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> you're just moving the incompatibility into the client libraries<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:01:46)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> but if it's not meant to be used for IM, then IM UIs shouldn't show it<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:01:59)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> yes, that's why i didn't want to put it in the client libraries :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:02:24)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> i want to be able to make stealth service accounts exist without modifying literally every existing and future application not to show them<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:02:57)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> wjt: if you want them to be that stealthy, put the new property on a different interface<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:03:11)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> AccountManager.I.AndAlso.SecretNinjaAccounts<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:03:37)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> that's exactly what I just proposed? :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:03:55)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> oh right I thought by "alongside" you meant in o.fd.T.AM<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:04:07)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> nono, i meant on ja.ninja.AccountManager<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:04:57)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> I think that's better than modifying the client libraries<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:05:24)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> but implemented in MC (yeah yeah, adding weird extensions considered harmful, but i also don't want to use the libmissioncontrol-server6 API and subclass shit)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:07:01)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> oh yeah having weird extensions live in MC where we can keep an eye on them is better than having them in misc subclasses :-)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:07:34)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> tbh it's not necessarily too niche to have in telepathy-spec<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:07:41)</font> <b>smcv:</b></font> it's just too weird to have in the core interface<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:07:45)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> exactly :)<br/>
<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:08:09)</font> <b>wjt:</b></font> ugh. so after empathy crashed and this MUC i'm in respawned, all the scrollback messages turned up in 1-1 channels<br/>
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<font color="#A82F2F"><font size="2">(16:10:13)</font> <b>sjoerd:</b></font> wjt: yeah that still happens from time to time, although i thought it was fixed :(<br/>
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