From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48909@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 21:54:03 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i092s2X02439 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:54:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AemmG-0002Wx-5B; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:53:36 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88703D1B46E for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 02:00:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 72572-01 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:59:23 -0400 (AST) Received: from rwcrmhc13.comcast.net (rwcrmhc13.comcast.net [204.127.198.39]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD336D1B454 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 21:59:04 -0400 (AST) Received: from lorenso.com (c-24-1-26-144.client.comcast.net[24.1.26.144]) by comcast.net (rwcrmhc13) with ESMTP id <20040105015908015005cvvee>; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 01:59:08 +0000 Message-ID: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2004 19:59:02 -0600 From: "D. Dante Lorenso" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Alex J. Avriette" cc: Bruce Momjian , PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> In-Reply-To: <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.61 Status: OR Alex J. Avriette wrote: >On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > >>>I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still >>>have no clue how I'd find the same data without using psql. In MySQL >>>I can run those queries from PHP, PERL...etc. I know you can find that >>>data in system tables in PostgreSQL, but I don't wanna muck around with >>>all that. I just wanna do something as simple as MySQL. >>> >>> >>[ Moved to hackers.] >> >>I am starting to agree that our \d* handling is just too overloaded. >>Look at the option list from \?: >> >> >>I like the idea of adding a new syntax to show that information using >>simple SQL command syntax, and putting it in the backend so all >>applications can access it. I know we have information schema, and >>maybe that can be used to make this simpler. >> >> >Bruce, while I agree with you about \d (and all its children), as well >as the querying we talked about on irc, I disagree with the notion of a >"SHOW DATABASES" query. This is one of the things that irritates me >about mysql is the pseudo-sql that everyone has come to accept ... It doesn't >make sense to create pseudo-sql, when all you're abstracting is function-macros... > Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC , because they reflect my intensions directly and 'make sense'. Using the slash commands works if you are familiar with them ... sorta like 'ls' switches (I type 'ls -alF' without thinking about what those switches do because it's embedded in my head from years of repetition. Any other flags to 'ls', and I gotta go hit the man pages.) What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there... >If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E. > > Have you actually done that? OMG! 1) Using System Catalogs ... (from psql -E) SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname as "Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN 'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN 'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as "Owner" FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = c.relowner LEFT JOIN pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','') AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', 'pg_toast') AND pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) ORDER BY 1,2; or ... 2) (using information schema ... little better) SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema = 'public'; or ... 3) like MySQL does it... SHOW TABLES; Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking now. hehe. There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like: 'dir' in DOS, 'ls' in Unix 'SHOW' in MySQL ??? in PostgreSQL ? Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer, I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies. Dante ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48908@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 21:50:03 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i092ntX01459 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 21:50:03 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AemiO-0002D1-Di; Thu, 08 Jan 2004 20:49:36 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FD9BD1B473 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 02:05:14 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 70484-09 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:04:28 -0400 (AST) Received: from news.hub.org (news.hub.org [200.46.204.72]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F8CAD1BB73 for ; Sun, 4 Jan 2004 22:04:16 -0400 (AST) Received: from news.hub.org (news.hub.org [200.46.204.72]) by news.hub.org (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id i0524DU6041774 for ; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 02:04:13 GMT (envelope-from news@news.hub.org) Received: (from news@localhost) by news.hub.org (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id i0521bd7040362 for pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; Mon, 5 Jan 2004 02:01:37 GMT From: "William ZHANG" X-Newsgroups: comp.databases.postgresql.hackers Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 10:00:55 +0800 Organization: N/A Lines: 6 Message-ID: References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> X-Complaints-To: usenet@news.hub.org X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-3.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,PRIORITY_NO_NAME autolearn=no version=2.61 Status: OR I think moving the \d and simliar features in psql to SQL is a good idea. That will make the features available in any client library. As for the syntax, maybe a investigation is needed. ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48835=pgman=candle.pha.pa.us@postgresql.org Tue Jan 6 03:08:59 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0688wX03365 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 03:08:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AdmGn-0006qB-5D for pgman@candle.pha.pa.us; Tue, 06 Jan 2004 02:08:57 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D470D1B446 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 08:02:13 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 19966-06 for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 04:01:30 -0400 (AST) Received: from mail.eckpart.de (unknown [62.206.85.106]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP id C278CD1B46E for ; Tue, 6 Jan 2004 04:01:06 -0400 (AST) Received: (qmail 349 invoked from network); 6 Jan 2004 08:01:11 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO at13.eckpart.de) (192.168.41.70) by cserv.eckpart.de with SMTP; 6 Jan 2004 08:01:11 -0000 From: Tommi Maekitalo Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2004 09:01:10 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> In-Reply-To: <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401060901.10830.t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Am Sonntag, 4. Januar 2004 20:13 schrieb Alex J. Avriette: > On Sat, Jan 03, 2004 at 08:25:21PM -0500, Bruce Momjian wrote: > > > I finally figure it out, I just end up forgetting again later. I still ... > > /functions > /databases > ... Long options sounds really good. It is like GNU-tools. A single - for single character options and a double -- for long options. Ah - a single \ for short options in postgresql and a double \\ for long? What do you think? -- Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH http://www.epgmbh.de ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48912@postgresql.org Thu Jan 8 22:37:54 2004 Return-path: Received: from hosting.commandprompt.com (216.commandprompt.com [207.173.200.216]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i093bpX02244 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 22:37:52 -0500 (EST) Received: from postgresql.org (svr1.postgresql.org [200.46.204.71]) by hosting.commandprompt.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i093U0k32213; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 19:30:33 -0800 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E70D1B43E for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 03:29:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 28908-10 for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:28:57 -0400 (AST) Received: from mail.hive.nj2.inquent.com (mc.carriermail.com [205.178.180.9]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP id E42E8D1B48A for ; Thu, 8 Jan 2004 23:27:26 -0400 (AST) Received: (qmail 28537 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2004 03:27:33 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.1.199?) (134.22.68.14) by 205.178.180.9 with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 03:27:33 -0000 Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded From: Rod Taylor To: "D. Dante Lorenso" cc: "Alex J. Avriette" , Bruce Momjian , PostgreSQL Development In-Reply-To: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> Content-Type: text/plain Message-ID: <1073618847.322.29.camel@jester> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Ximian Evolution 1.4.5 Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2004 22:27:28 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=no version=2.61 Status: OR > Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily > remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC
, because they > reflect > my intensions directly and 'make sense'. Can you remember how to get a list of indexes on a particular table? How about a specific indexes build? I ask, because I constantly forgot both of those (don't like FROM). > 2) (using information schema ... little better) > > SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema > = 'public'; > > or ... > > 3) like MySQL does it... > > SHOW TABLES; > > Lemme think about which one I prefer ;-) Uh, Ok, I'm done thinking > now. hehe. I actually prefer #2 myself. It works on a number of databases aside from just PostgreSQL. So, as a user who worked in a mixed environment it was easier to remember. But I get your point. > Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer, > I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch > even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it > right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without I agree with the simple SHOW TABLES command but disagree with: SHOW [FULL] COLUMNS FROM tbl_name [FROM db_name] [LIKE wild] I much prefer: SELECT * FROM COLUMNS WHERE table LIKE '%tab%' AND database = 'billing'; It's not much longer, certainly more natural to those that know SQL, and infinitely more useful since you can create result sets that the programmer of SHOW hadn't considered. A perfect example is the addition of the FULL clause in SHOW. The above select does not need additional keywords for different formatting options as it can simply use "natural" SQL styling. ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) From tswan@idigx.com Fri Jan 9 02:07:40 2004 Return-path: Received: from stubee.d2hosting.net (d2hosting.net [66.70.41.160]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0977cX28507 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 02:07:40 -0500 (EST) Received: from idigx.com (adsl-159-238-227.mob.bellsouth.net [68.159.238.227]) by stubee.d2hosting.net (8.11.6/linuxconf) with ESMTP id i0977Qn08421; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 01:07:26 -0600 Message-ID: <3FFE532C.2090503@idigx.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2004 01:07:24 -0600 From: Thomas Swan User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.6b) Gecko/20031205 Thunderbird/0.4 X-Accept-Language: en-us, en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org cc: Bruce Momjian Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded References: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us> In-Reply-To: <200401060504.i0654B012562@candle.pha.pa.us> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.82.5.0 X-Enigmail-Supports: pgp-inline, pgp-mime Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Bruce Momjian wrote: >Alex J. Avriette wrote: > > >>On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote: >> >> >> >>>Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily >>>remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC
, because they >>>reflect >>>my intensions directly and 'make sense'. >>> >>> >>What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell. >>You can't expect all applications to work correctly. I'd like to second >>Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d* >>commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software >>(even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some >>adjustment. >> >> > >OK, I will drop the idea. Thanks. > > > Bruce, The idea is not without merit. What you are looking at is a way to get this information as a query without having to know all the intricasies of all the pg_* internals or duplicating complex queries. "psql -E" shows you just how tricky this is. Secondly, if this information changes in a release, then the end user has to rewrite all of the queries to work. Being able to issue a query to the dbms and get the information as a normal SQL result makes sense and is definately convenient. The \d* commands work from psql but not from anywhere else. Try getting the information from a PHP script by sending a "\dS" query. It doesn't work. If the same queries were stored in the backend and referenced by psql and also could be referenced by other scripts, this would be a good thing and keep the work centralized. If the queries were in the backend, the psql users could keep the \dS command but it would call an internal function or execute a queried stored in the system tables. One option is to get the information via a function like SELECT * FROM pg_info('tables'); SELECT * FROM pg_info('indexes'); "psql -E" would show the same query being executed for "\dt" Another option if no one wanted a language construct, perhaps one option would be to store the queries themselves in a table like pg_queries. This also has the advantage of exposing the queries used so that they can used as examples for other purposes. +------------+------------------------------------------+ |pg_info_type|pg_query | +------------+------------------------------------------+ |tables |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname | | |as "Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN | | |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN| | |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' | | |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as| | |"Owner" FROM pg_catalog.pg_class c LEFT | | |JOIN pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = | | |c.relowner LEFT JOIN | | |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = | | |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('r','')| | |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', | | |'pg_toast') AND | | |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) | | |ORDER BY 1,2; | +------------+------------------------------------------+ |indexes |SELECT n.nspname as "Schema", c.relname as| | |"Name", CASE c.relkind WHEN 'r' THEN | | |'table' WHEN 'v' THEN 'view' WHEN 'i' THEN| | |'index' WHEN 'S' THEN 'sequence' WHEN 's' | | |THEN 'special' END as "Type", u.usename as| | |"Owner", c2.relname as "Table" FROM | | |pg_catalog.pg_class c JOIN | | |pg_catalog.pg_index i ON i.indexrelid = | | |c.oid JOIN pg_catalog.pg_class c2 ON | | |i.indrelid = c2.oid LEFT JOIN | | |pg_catalog.pg_user u ON u.usesysid = | | |c.relowner LEFT JOIN | | |pg_catalog.pg_namespace n ON n.oid = | | |c.relnamespace WHERE c.relkind IN ('i','')| | |AND n.nspname NOT IN ('pg_catalog', | | |'pg_toast') AND | | |pg_catalog.pg_table_is_visible(c.oid) | | |ORDER BY 1,2; | +------------+------------------------------------------+ Again, this is just food for thought. Perhaps it is a way to satisfy both arguments. Thomas From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48922@postgresql.org Fri Jan 9 05:23:03 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i09AN1X10448 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 05:23:02 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AetmQ-000637-HX; Fri, 09 Jan 2004 04:22:14 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCA3ED1B447 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 10:20:50 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 95279-02 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:20:04 -0400 (AST) Received: from mail.eckpart.de (unknown [62.206.85.106]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 34AE7D1B4C6 for ; Fri, 9 Jan 2004 06:19:45 -0400 (AST) Received: (qmail 21196 invoked from network); 9 Jan 2004 10:19:46 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO at13.eckpart.de) (192.168.41.70) by cserv.eckpart.de with SMTP; 9 Jan 2004 10:19:46 -0000 From: Tommi Maekitalo Organization: Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2004 11:19:45 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.4 References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> In-Reply-To: <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401091119.45778.t.maekitalo@epgmbh.de> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Hi, > > 2) (using information schema ... little better) > > SELECT table_name FROM information_schema.tables WHERE table_schema > = 'public'; > > or ... > ... I just looked at the information_schema. It is a very nice feature, but difficult to use in psql. I just wanted to see, what I can find here. After trying and rtfm I ended in '\d information_schema.*'. I get a very large page wich is quite unreadable. '\d' is normally very usable. It would be better not to show the view-definition. What if \d on views just show the column, type and attribute. \d+ would show the full view-definition. Tommi -- Dr. Eckhardt + Partner GmbH http://www.epgmbh.de ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 5: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faqs/FAQ.html From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48946@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 07:42:08 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0ACg6X18515 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 07:42:07 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfINd-0006bw-4f; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 06:38:17 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35C29D1D542 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:36:36 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 91943-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:36:07 -0400 (AST) Received: from filer (c-24-6-183-218.client.comcast.net [24.6.183.218]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACFBD1D54E for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:36:03 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1000) by filer with local; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:36:06 -0800 Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 04:36:06 -0800 From: Kevin Brown To: PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Message-ID: <20040110123605.GA2608@filer> Mail-Followup-To: Kevin Brown , PostgreSQL-development References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <200401040125.i041PLR14687@candle.pha.pa.us> <20040104191322.GD8524@posixnap.net> <3FF8C4E6.9090008@lorenso.com> <20040105154534.GF8524@posixnap.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20040105154534.GF8524@posixnap.net> Organization: Frobozzco International User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.4i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.8 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Alex J. Avriette wrote: > On Sun, Jan 04, 2004 at 07:59:02PM -0600, D. Dante Lorenso wrote: > > > Anything other than simple, short commands is a waste, IMHO. I can easily > > remember SHOW DATABASES and SHOW TABLES and DESC
, because they > > reflect > > my intensions directly and 'make sense'. > > What makes sense to me in csh doesn't make sense in a bourne shell. And yet, bash has !$ and job control just like csh, even though they're not standard Bourne-shell features. It's not a bad thing to adopt good ideas from other projects. > You can't expect all applications to work correctly. You can't expect this anyway, at least when dealing with cross-database applications. The intersection of the SQL feature sets across all the major database engines is pretty limited -- small enough that you'll almost certainly end up using something database-specific when attempting to do anything truly nontrivial. > I'd like to second > Peter's "yep" when asked if he could remember all the various \d* > commands. It really comes down to whether you're trying. New software > (even though you may have been using it for a year) requires some > adjustment. This is true, but it's no argument against implementing "show databases", "show tables", and "describe". Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes sense to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used for something else. So we might instead use something else (e.g. "VIEW") instead. Either way, a single command that takes as its argument the type of entity you want to see would be extremely useful, and much easier to remember than what we currently have -- because the names of the entities that are available are already well-defined and are likely known to the user already. > > What's more important is the ability to use these commands from any > > interface not just 'psql' client. I think 'psql' already has the slash > > commands. No need to create NEW slash commands there... > > > > >If you want to find out how to show the databases in sql, use psql -E. > > > > > > > > Have you actually done that? OMG! > > Yes, I do it frequently. You may notice a recent post of mine used > exactly that output. Now do it from within psql. It's \l, as it turns out. This violates the principle of least surprise because psql generally uses \d* to show entities. > > 3) like MySQL does it... > > > > SHOW TABLES; > > Should postgres also support the '#' comment? What other non-sql > sqlisms should we support? PG already has a number of PG-specific features. Adding more, *especially* if they happen to be compatible with other databases, isn't going to hurt much. No, the thing to worry about here is whether or not these commands ("SHOW", for instance) will appear in the SQL spec and will have a completely different meaning from the meaning in PG. Also of concern is that "SHOW" is already reserved and used for something else. We'd have to use something other than "SHOW" for the purpose being discussed. > > There's something to be said about the 'SHOW'and 'DESC' sql-extensions > > added into MySQL. Newbies can really 'get' it quickly. It's what really > > I would argue that these are not "sql extensions" at all. If you like, I > can go over the source to verify this myself, but my guess is that MySQL > is doing exactly what postgres is doing, and evaluating this as a macro. No, they are built into MySQL's backend parser. You can easily verify this by executing these commands from within Perl or Python. They return a table just like any other SQL command that returns data. > Furthermore, databases are not designed for "newbies" to jump right in > with both feet. They are designed to be robust and stable. Now this is ludicrous. Yes, they're designed to be robust and stable, but that has absolutely nothing to do with how easy they are to use. > Additionally, > some SQL compliance is nice. After that, you work on features. If we were talking about something that went against the SQL standard then I would agree with you. But we're talking about something that, as far as I know, isn't in the SQL standard at all. Implementing it won't make us noncompliant with the SQL standard any more than the implementation of CREATE INDEX has. > Changing the interface so that you or others don't have to read the > documentation smacks of laziness. Really? One could make the same argument for standards of any kind, yes? :-) > Somebody like Bruce, Peter, or Tom (or indeed somebody else) is going > to waste yet more time making things like this available to somebody > who probably won't read any of the other documentation either, and will > wind up on irc pestering somebody like myself, Dave, or Neil. Why is > this progress? It's progress because it will keep those people from pestering someone in the know about how to show the available databases, or how to describe a table. > > sold me on MySQL when I first learned it. For me, it's like: > > > > 'dir' in DOS, > > 'ls' in Unix > > 'SHOW' in MySQL > > ??? in PostgreSQL ? > > We've been over this. It's \d*. For listing databases it's \l. Not exactly consistent with the rest of the related psql commands. > > Sure, with time as my database needs grew and I matured as a developer, > > I eventually gained more respect for PostgreSQL and have made the switch > > even without this feature, but to this day, I really think MySQL *did it > > right* with those extensions. You can't become a PostgreSQL guru without > > being a newbie first. I vote we make it easier for newbies. > > What really frightens me here is that I know of several applications (shudder, > "LAMP" applications) which use the output of "show tables" or other of your > "extensions." The problem with this is precisely that it /isn't/ sql, and it > can't be supported as a static command. Of course not. But applications which rely on information such as that provided by "show tables" will typically not be possible to write while adhering to the feature intersection of all major databases anyway. > It is intended to be there for people > to use interactively. Nonsense. It's there to be used. Whether it's used interactively or not is irrelevant. The command provides useful information. But see below. > Making "pseudo sql" will encourage more developers to > (and I'd apologize for this if it weren't true) code in Postgres the same > lazy way they code in MySQL. This is a strawman argument, although I understand your concern here. To be honest, for application development I'd much rather see people use information_schema, but that's only because information_schema is in the SQL standard and as such should be the preferred way to retrieve the information that the "SHOW" commands in MySQL return. That said, the inclusion of information_schema is a very recent development on the PostgreSQL side of things, and doesn't even exist on some other major databases such as MSSQL. Of course, a PG equivalent to MySQL's "show" would be an even more recent development... :-) -- Kevin Brown kevin@sysexperts.com ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48947@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 08:12:39 2004 Return-path: Received: from hosting.commandprompt.com (216.commandprompt.com [207.173.200.216]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0ADCbX21504 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 08:12:38 -0500 (EST) Received: from postgresql.org (svr1.postgresql.org [200.46.204.71]) by hosting.commandprompt.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0AD8Gk19951; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 05:09:17 -0800 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7758BD1D54C for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:08:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 02466-03 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:07:32 -0400 (AST) Received: from curie.credativ.org (credativ.com [217.160.209.18]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64975D1D54E for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 09:07:28 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 765E356243; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:25 +0100 (CET) Received: from colt.pezone.net (dsl-213-023-254-001.arcor-ip.net [213.23.254.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98A65623C; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:24 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Eisentraut To: Kevin Brown , PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:07:24 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 References: <3FEE6DFB.9040408@lorenso.com> <20040105154534.GF8524@posixnap.net> <20040110123605.GA2608@filer> In-Reply-To: <20040110123605.GA2608@filer> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401101407.24766.peter_e@gmx.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS at credativ.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Kevin Brown wrote: > Every database engine is different, but in the case of PG it makes > sense to adopt the best methods we can find. A consistent and easy > to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very > least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets > right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used > for something else. So we might instead use something else (e.g. > "VIEW") instead. What is wrong with SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables; ? If it's too much to type, put information_schema in the path. This syntax has the advantage that you can use qualifications and other SQL features. And you can build customized views on top of it. Does SHOW TABLES or whatever it might be called support that? ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48948@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 11:30:24 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0AGUMX12749 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 11:30:23 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfLzP-0000hA-JY; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 10:29:31 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A69DED1B51D for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 16:28:00 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 14752-08 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:27:29 -0400 (AST) Received: from zigo.dhs.org (as2-4-3.an.g.bonet.se [194.236.34.191]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89156D1D560 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:27:23 -0400 (AST) Received: from zigo.zigo.dhs.org (zigo.zigo.dhs.org [192.168.0.1]) by zigo.dhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D7EF8E0D; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:27:21 +0100 (CET) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:27:21 +0100 (CET) From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Dennis_Bj=F6rklund?= To: Peter Eisentraut cc: Kevin Brown , PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded In-Reply-To: <200401101407.24766.peter_e@gmx.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > > to remember way of showing the various entities in psql (at the very > > least) would be of great advantage. It's something that MySQL gets > > right. As it turns out, we already have "SHOW" in psql and it's used > > for something else. > > What is wrong with > > SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables; The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you don't get from the above. I would rather have long commands so one can write \describe_table foo and have the tab completion work for these of course (only for the long commands, the \dt and such does not belong in completion). The information schema is nice, but it's not what I want to use at the prompt to view the content of the database. -- /Dennis Björklund ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48950@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 13:30:54 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0AIUrX25980 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:30:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfNsG-0002v6-Lh; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 12:30:17 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92952D1D56E for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:28:45 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 33571-06 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:28:14 -0400 (AST) Received: from smtp.istop.com (dci.doncaster.on.ca [66.11.168.194]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9FBA4D1D572 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:28:13 -0400 (AST) Received: from stark.xeocode.com (gsstark.mtl.istop.com [66.11.160.162]) by smtp.istop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC0837658; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:28:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=stark.xeocode.com ident=foobar) by stark.xeocode.com with smtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 1AfNqD-0001y1-00; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:28:09 -0500 To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded References: In-Reply-To: From: Greg Stark Organization: The Emacs Conspiracy; member since 1992 Date: 10 Jan 2004 13:28:08 -0500 Message-ID: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> Lines: 22 User-Agent: Gnus/5.09 (Gnus v5.9.0) Emacs/21.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Dennis Björklund writes: > I would rather have long commands so one can write > > \describe_table foo I would think it would be better to keep everything under a single command and have a 1-1 correspondence to \d. Ie, just add a long form syntax following the existing \d. \d would become just an obvious set of abbreviations. So for example: \describe table foo => \dt foo \describe index foo => \di foo \describe aggregate foo => \da foo \describe operator foo => \do foo ... -- greg ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 6: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48952@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 14:17:26 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0AJHOX29152 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:17:25 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfObD-0003wE-9N; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 13:16:43 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27045D1B498 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:15:51 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42506-02 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:15:21 -0400 (AST) Received: from sss.pgh.pa.us (unknown [192.204.191.242]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 143C4D1B4C5 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 15:15:20 -0400 (AST) Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0AJFJ19011695; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500 (EST) To: Greg Stark cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded In-Reply-To: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> References: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> Comments: In-reply-to Greg Stark message dated "10 Jan 2004 13:28:08 -0500" Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2004 14:15:19 -0500 Message-ID: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Greg Stark writes: > So for example: > \describe table foo => \dt foo > \describe index foo => \di foo > \describe aggregate foo => \da foo > \describe operator foo => \do foo It doesn't seem to me that this buys much except verboseness, though. ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends: 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands. 2. Some people aren't using psql. 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the needed commands change. I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three. regards, tom lane ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 9: the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48954@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 19:19:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B0JPX16197 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:19:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfTJQ-0000BC-Jg; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 18:18:40 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17450D1B465 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:17:39 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 71332-04 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:17:10 -0400 (AST) Received: from lakemtao03.cox.net (lakemtao03.cox.net [68.1.17.242]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937E9D1B461 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:17:06 -0400 (AST) Received: from louche.swelter.net ([68.98.183.165]) by lakemtao03.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20040111001710.UTGO2192.lakemtao03.cox.net@louche.swelter.net> for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:17:10 -0500 Received: by louche.swelter.net (Postfix, from userid 513) id 0B28AB; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost (louche.swelter.net [127.0.0.1]) by louche.swelter.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22CDBB for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:16:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 00:16:58 +0000 (UTC) From: Jon Jensen X-X-Sender: jon@louche.swelter.net To: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded In-Reply-To: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> Message-ID: References: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote: > ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends: > > 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands. > 2. Some people aren't using psql. > 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the > needed commands change. > > I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem > areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three. I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still faster to type \? then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And "show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it. Jon ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 7: don't forget to increase your free space map settings From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48955@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:09:33 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B19WX22168 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:09:33 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfU65-000194-6w; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 19:08:57 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6F12D1B528 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:07:56 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 70575-10 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:07:28 -0400 (AST) Received: from curie.credativ.org (credativ.com [217.160.209.18]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA5B5D1B48B for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:07:24 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD86C56243; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:26 +0100 (CET) Received: from colt.pezone.net (dsl-213-023-254-001.arcor-ip.net [213.23.254.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA9C35623C; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Eisentraut To: Tom Lane , Greg Stark Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org References: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> In-Reply-To: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS at credativ.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Tom Lane wrote: > 2. Some people aren't using psql. I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe" functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are. ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48956@postgresql.org Sat Jan 10 20:19:59 2004 Return-path: Received: from hosting.commandprompt.com (216.commandprompt.com [207.173.200.216]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B1JoX23197 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 20:19:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from postgresql.org (svr1.postgresql.org [200.46.204.71]) by hosting.commandprompt.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B1E2k19636; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 17:15:07 -0800 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FE7D1B436 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:13:46 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 76096-05 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:13:18 -0400 (AST) Received: from curie.credativ.org (credativ.com [217.160.209.18]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 56B90D1B430 for ; Sat, 10 Jan 2004 21:13:15 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91B2A56243; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:18 +0100 (CET) Received: from colt.pezone.net (dsl-213-023-254-001.arcor-ip.net [213.23.254.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D86F5623C; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:17 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Eisentraut To: Dennis =?iso-8859-1?q?Bj=F6rklund?= Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:13:17 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 cc: Kevin Brown , PostgreSQL-development References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401110213.17581.peter_e@gmx.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS at credativ.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Dennis Björklund wrote: > > What is wrong with > > > > SELECT * FROM information_schema.tables; > > The result is very hard to read since it's so much of it (try column > instead of tables). The \xx commands do some nice formatting you > don't get from the above. This is an interesting point to remember for those that are advocating pushing psql's queries into the backend. psql's queries are optimized for monospaced text screens of limited size. Unless someone else is writing a command-line client, there would be little reuse effect, because any given application will have different display requirements. (Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes there is more than one table, or the information is in the table footers. It'd be quite complicated to make the backend produce those kinds of displays.) ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48957@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 04:34:27 2004 Return-path: Received: from hosting.commandprompt.com (216.commandprompt.com [207.173.200.216]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B9YPX11678 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 04:34:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from postgresql.org (svr1.postgresql.org [200.46.204.71]) by hosting.commandprompt.com (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0B9U9k04632; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 01:31:12 -0800 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C49AFD1D555 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 09:29:54 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 26981-08 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:29:25 -0400 (AST) Received: from zigo.dhs.org (as2-4-3.an.g.bonet.se [194.236.34.191]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75DDD1D27D for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 05:29:22 -0400 (AST) Received: from zigo.zigo.dhs.org (zigo.zigo.dhs.org [192.168.0.1]) by zigo.dhs.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8DED8E0D; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 10:29:23 +0100 (CET) From: Dennis Bjorklund To: Peter Eisentraut cc: Kevin Brown , PostgreSQL-development Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded In-Reply-To: <200401110213.17581.peter_e@gmx.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Peter Eisentraut wrote: > Another problem with pushing psql's queries into the backend is that > much of the output that psql makes is not a single table. Sometimes > there is more than one table, or the information is in the table > footers. Yes, pushing the \xx commands into the server makes no sense to me at all. The commands in psql are very specific for psql. I don't see why you ever want to do SHOW TABLES except at the command line in psql. If your application wants to find all tables in the database, then we have the standard sql way, which is the information schema. The argument that "show tables" is easier to remember then \dt might be true, but to me that just means that we should make psql better by adding \describe_table and such, not to push psql code into the server. Making a couple of views that are pg specific to make it easier to get information out could be good however. The information schema does not always contain all information one might want. Making specialised SQL commands for it I'm not in favor of at all. -- /Dennis Björklund ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 1: subscribe and unsubscribe commands go to majordomo@postgresql.org From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48965@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 12:20:30 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0BHKTX05825 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:20:29 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfjFg-00073z-AN; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 11:19:52 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46DAED1B4AD for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 17:18:57 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 77771-03 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:18:26 -0400 (AST) Received: from sss.pgh.pa.us (unknown [192.204.191.242]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F237D1B51D for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 13:18:25 -0400 (AST) Received: from sss2.sss.pgh.pa.us (tgl@localhost [127.0.0.1]) by sss.pgh.pa.us (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id i0BHI519016986; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:18:05 -0500 (EST) To: Peter Eisentraut cc: Greg Stark , pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded In-Reply-To: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net> References: <878ykf4q13.fsf@stark.xeocode.com> <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net> Comments: In-reply-to Peter Eisentraut message dated "Sun, 11 Jan 2004 02:07:25 +0100" Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 12:18:05 -0500 Message-ID: <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us> From: Tom Lane X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Peter Eisentraut writes: > Tom Lane wrote: >> 2. Some people aren't using psql. > I don't see why this is an issue. People not using psql are either > using a GUI, which presumably supports plenty of "show" and "describe" > functionality, or they're writing their own program, in which case it > doesn't really matter how short or easy to remember the commands are. But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom program implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they all have to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if people start to rely on information_schema for those things, life will get better, but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself certainly hasn't moved in that direction. regards, tom lane ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 8: explain analyze is your friend From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48981@postgresql.org Sun Jan 11 20:52:09 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0C1q8X05166 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:52:09 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1AfrF5-0005Pj-Aq; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 19:51:47 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 654B2D1B519 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 01:50:40 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 57929-03 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:50:12 -0400 (AST) Received: from lakemtao04.cox.net (lakemtao04.cox.net [68.1.17.241]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD464D1D576 for ; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 21:50:07 -0400 (AST) Received: from [192.168.0.13] ([68.105.168.121]) by lakemtao04.cox.net (InterMail vM.5.01.06.05 201-253-122-130-105-20030824) with ESMTP id <20040112015012.MDVR19895.lakemtao04.cox.net@[192.168.0.13]>; Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:12 -0500 From: Robert Treat To: Jon Jensen , pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2004 20:50:08 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: <11694.1073762119@sss.pgh.pa.us> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401112050.09142.xzilla@users.sourceforge.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR On Saturday 10 January 2004 19:16, Jon Jensen wrote: > On Sat, 10 Jan 2004, Tom Lane wrote: > > ISTM there are three fundamental problems with \d and friends: > > > > 1. Some people have a hard time remembering the commands. > > 2. Some people aren't using psql. > > 3. psql keeps breaking across backend versions because the > > needed commands change. > > > > I don't see a lot of value in addressing just one of these problem > > areas, when we could instead do something that addresses all three. > > I agree, at least for #2 and #3. But I just don't understand #1. Anything > is hard to remember when you're just starting to learn it. But it's still > faster to type \? then \dt than it is to type "show tables". And > "show tables" is hard (relatively speaking) for me to remember because I'm > used to psql's way of doing things, since I mostly use it. > I'd second this point; I've certainly stumbled over the "show" syntax when trying to get anything other than tables in mysql. Robert Treat -- Build A Brighter Lamp :: Linux Apache {middleware} PostgreSQL ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 2: you can get off all lists at once with the unregister command (send "unregister YourEmailAddressHere" to majordomo@postgresql.org) From pgsql-hackers-owner+M48993@postgresql.org Mon Jan 12 12:50:40 2004 Return-path: Received: from noon.pghoster.com (noon.pghoster.com [64.246.0.64]) by candle.pha.pa.us (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id i0CHocX04973 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 12:50:39 -0500 (EST) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71] helo=postgresql.org) by noon.pghoster.com with esmtp (Exim 4.24) id 1Ag6Ck-0008V2-E5; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 11:50:22 -0600 X-Original-To: pgsql-hackers-postgresql.org@localhost.postgresql.org Received: from localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED886D1D17D for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 17:49:16 +0000 (GMT) Received: from svr1.postgresql.org ([200.46.204.71]) by localhost (neptune.hub.org [200.46.204.2]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 17616-05 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:48:46 -0400 (AST) Received: from curie.credativ.org (credativ.com [217.160.209.18]) by svr1.postgresql.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09691D1B467 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 13:48:45 -0400 (AST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CA05626B; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:48:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from colt.pezone.net (dsl-213-023-254-001.arcor-ip.net [213.23.254.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-MD5 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by curie.credativ.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F90D5623C; Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:48:43 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Eisentraut To: Tom Lane Subject: Re: [HACKERS] psql \d option list overloaded Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2004 18:48:43 +0100 User-Agent: KMail/1.5.1 cc: Greg Stark , pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org References: <200401110207.26299.peter_e@gmx.net> <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us> In-Reply-To: <16985.1073841485@sss.pgh.pa.us> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-15" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <200401121848.43765.peter_e@gmx.net> X-Virus-Scanned: by AMaViS at credativ.com X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at postgresql.org X-Mailing-List: pgsql-hackers Precedence: bulk Sender: pgsql-hackers-owner@postgresql.org X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - noon.pghoster.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - candle.pha.pa.us X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - postgresql.org X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.61 (1.212.2.1-2003-12-09-exp) on candle.pha.pa.us X-Spam-Status: No, hits=-4.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=ham version=2.61 Status: OR Tom Lane wrote: > But this interacts with point 3 (psql breaks on every new backend > version). It's not desirable to have every GUI and large custom > program implementing its own set of metadata inquiry commands: they > all have to go through the same update pain as psql. Perhaps if > people start to rely on information_schema for those things, life > will get better, but I'm unconvinced that will happen. psql itself > certainly hasn't moved in that direction. IIRC, the two killers in psql compatibility have been outer joins and schemas. I don't see how we could have avoided that, except with highly specialized and static (parameter-less) commands. There have been additional minor issues, but I suppose we could have avoided those if we had cared to do so at all. Several people have in the past proposed to keep psql backward compatible, even if only by means of if (version =x) { ... } else if (version = y) { ... } (which would be fine by me), but apparently no one has felt pressed enough yet. ---------------------------(end of broadcast)--------------------------- TIP 4: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster